Nicholas Samstag - Family dynamics in business

We actually just recently recorded an episode together for Nick's podcast, which we'll link to in the show notes once that one is out. And today Nick joins me to discuss family dynamics in business. Welcome, Nick. Happy to have you here and really great to get to speak with you again today.

Nicholas Samstag: Well, thanks, Tim.

It was such fun the other day, and I'm sure we'll win for more this time as well.

Tim Butara: Thank you. Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. I can't wait for the first one we did to get published, and I actually can't wait to jump into this one. So, obviously, let's, let's start with the brother things. So you know, just the basics of family dynamics in like organizations or groups and how that translates to, to the business context,

Nicholas Samstag: right?

So there are many theories about this to be sure, as there are in my field work, we're sort of. always awash with different theories. But the ones that have spoken to me the most are broadly defined as systems theories. And systems theories basically look at groups and try to understand what the intergroup relationships are.

So anytime you have more than one person, two people or more, You have a system, according to this way of thinking, a system meaning that there are, there are necessarily communications across all kinds of dimensions, intellectual, emotional, behavioral, certainly. There are all kinds of behaviors and communications that we exhibit, some conscious, some not, and those, those different types of communications form into what these theorists would call a system.

So it's a system. So it's not one person in a silo, another person in a silo. It's about groups of people and how they interrelate. So every organization, be it business or theological or military or anything else, any organization has its members coming from their, their different families. And they come, people come into organizations having developed within the crucible of the family.

So if you're the oldest member of your family, You're accustomed to being treated in a certain way. If you're a middle child, if you're, if you're the youngest, if you've been sick, if you've been dominant, I mean, whatever that is, whatever your early experiences are in your family, in the system of the family will necessarily be re articulated in any other context that you're in.

And I guess among the very interesting things about this for me. Is that anyone running a business, anyone being a CEO or a, or a leader in business or in any institution has to necessarily understand this, if things are going to go as well as possible, you don't have to be a psychologist. You don't have to take courses in this.

All the courses probably wouldn't be a bad idea, but you just have to understand these people don't come from a vacuum and they're not all the same. None of them are the same. And many of them have had not so good experiences in their family of origin. Not necessarily, you know, thinking about abuse and all of those horrible things, but you know, it's, it's hard being a human being.

It's hard developing. Puberty is hard for all of us. You know, parents have a well meaning, you know, gaslight their children inadvertently. And so you come to the business world and all of that's on display from every single member of your team. So I guess the, to say this in a, in a succinct way, the impact of early family dynamics on a business situation is going to be a recapitulation of those dynamics.

And so it's up to the people in charge to have some kind of sensitivity to that. And to understand that if you have, you know, a very high performer who was the eldest sibling in his environment, you know, he or she is probably going to be a dominant voice. And that, I'm just, I'm just pulling this out of my head, right?

But someone like that, although very potentially profitable to the company and a good asset, also may need to be reined in, you know, because that person may drown out other people who also have good things to say, that sort of thing.

Tim Butara: So yeah, those are definitely some, some concrete examples of like what leaders need to be mindful of or more specifically how leaders can use this, this knowledge, the topic that we're discussing today.

To kind of, you know, streamline both of, I guess, their processes, their, their company culture, their business operation, what would be some other important implications for leaders, I guess, you know, both on the, on the executive level, as well as just people managing different teams within organizations and firms.

Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, good question. I think, you know, as, as you know, I've discussed recently, I think the notion of psychological mindedness, unfortunately, doesn't doesn't have much traffic. And I think, I think, again, you know, business leaders owe it to themselves and to the people who work for them to cultivate psychological curiosity.

And unfortunately, with, with psychology, it's not until it's It's not until there are massive problems that people pay attention. You know, psychology is often seen as, oh yeah, sure, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you know what? To be somewhat astute, psychologically speaking, is for everybody's good. And so how do you do that?

I mean, I, I think you can take courses. I think you can read books. Unfortunately, the HR departments in, in many corporations are the, are the sort of the center for things psychological. And they, they, in my opinion, are not. are not particularly well trained and don't have really, and once again, my experience, I'm sure they're, I'm sure there are exceptions.

They don't have, they don't have as much of an impact, a positive impact as I would like to say, as I would like to see, but you know, what's an example? I mean, let's, let's just imagine a typical work environment where, you know, there are the, there are the bosses and there are the workers and there's a hierarchy, right?

The minute you have all that happening, you have. You have what in my field is called transference, where everyone in the, in the institution is assuming things about the leaders that may or may not be true, you know, like, like they're, they're bad people, they're good people, they're going to save me, they're going to, you know, so, so you have all kinds of systemic articulations where the, where the workers will act in large part to, to try to curry the favor of those who are leading the show.

And what the leaders can do is be aware of that. I mean, this is not, you know, there's a lot of this stuff that's very complex. This is not that complex. You just have to think about this, right? You and I were talking the other day about, I think we were talking about transference, you know, and people do look towards the leaders as kinds of saviors.

And so the leaders have a obligation, I think, and everybody else to be sensitive to that. What kinds of conversations are you having with what kinds of people? I mean, the conversation issue, I always find fascinating. If you, if you start being curious about conversations, you'll be mystified because you wonder why are they having this conversation and why are they getting angry about that?

And is that actually the subject, right? So, so many of the, this is probably no news to you. So much of the fights. that I see in my practice and in couples when individuals come and tell me the tensions they've they have with their bosses or their subordinates. So many of these conversations. are really great examples of how people are not psychologically aware.

The subject of these conversations or fights are often pretty ridiculous. It's like, that's not what's going on. Something else is going on. So I think that's, that's something we can do. They can do. We can become curious about, you know, Why are we saying what we're saying when we're saying it? And none of this, I should say this, none of this is about just being nice.

You know, that's another thing about psychology. Like, oh, just be nice to people. No, that's not the point. I mean, yes, we should be nice to people, but that's not the issue. We should be curious and thoughtful. about human interaction.

Tim Butara: Also, I really like the distinction between nice and kind because, you know, often these get mistaken for, for being the same thing, but very often, you know, something nice will not be kind and something, something kind will come off as, as the opposite of nice.

But I guess, you know, you could also, also add, besides curious and thoughtful, you could also be kind and that takes care of the nice aspect, so to speak.

Nicholas Samstag: You caught me on naive the other day, and I so appreciate this. I had one of my favorite professors in boarding school was a professor. Teachers in boarding school was a real stickler.

And if it wrote the word nice on any essay, he just failed us. He said nice is a ridiculous word, it doesn't really mean anything, never use it.

So I think, yeah, he would be in agreement with you, certainly. Yeah.

Tim Butara: Yeah, and you were talking about the importance of conversations, right? And in the context of the business, I guess, it all starts with the initial conversation. So, you know, the first interviews that people have with potential employers and, and just how everything is communicated, how, how information is relayed.

So, so how do family dynamics play into this aspect of work? So how you hire and what kind of questions you ask while hiring, you know, your candidates.

Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, that's a, that's another great question and many different ways to answer it. I think, I think a good thing to keep in mind, and this is just basic psychological awareness stuff, I think we all feel insecure.

I'm not saying that on a pathological level. I don't think we're all diagnosable, although most of us I think are diagnosable, but you know, when the people hiring and the people looking for a job, they both, all of us, all of them, always have certain types of anxieties. Right. And, and so something to keep in mind is that, is that, is that we all work from some level of insecurity.

And so the conversations that ensue will reflect that, you know, if, when I, when I was, when I was a little kid, actually, I, my, my, my mother had these great lawn parties and she had really fascinating friends. And I was always just mystified at, at the conversations, like, why is Mr. So and so always talking about his horses?

I've seen this guy for years, every party, horse, horse, horse, horse, you know, then somebody else would always talk about his bank account. You know, we've been talking about money and someone else would always be talking about his relationships. As a kid, I was just like, what's going on here? Like why, first of all, what does this mean and why are there such patterns here?

So I think, you know, in the interview situation, this is probably the right thing to say. In pressured situations. We all tend to become more of who we are. So if you're a kind of uptight person and you're really, you know, you're really frightened that you're going to be doing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing, then if you're the interview or the interviewee, then that's going to be what you're going to be feeling.

You're going to be feeling like, Oh, I can't really screw this up. Right. If on the other hand, you're someone who gets kind of gets enjoyment and relaxes. in interpersonal dialogue, then these situations will be actually kind of pleasant for you. You'll be like, oh, you know, I wonder, I wonder what's going to happen here.

That'll be great. So that's a good thing to keep in mind. As pressures build, we tend to become more of who we are. When external impingements become great, You know, if you're kind of a hysterical person, you're going to become much more hysterical. If you're someone who's calm in the face of difficulty, that's what's going to happen.

And none of this should be heard as judgmental or evaluative. It's just who we are. It's a function of personality. Personalities remain consistent over time. That's a whole big subject. I would say that. So family dynamics are always with us wherever we are, one way or the other. And the interview situations are, are tense on both parties.

Tim Butara: So are there any specific, you know, specific tips on how people hiring or people doing the interviewing or, or people, you know, reviewing candidates? can maybe take this into account and, you know, you know, make sure that it doesn't negatively impact how they pick and choose candidates.

Nicholas Samstag: I'll say this about that.

I assume that when candidates come in, they've passed a number of tests already. So the resumes, their recommendations, you know, they've cleared the first few hurdles. Because nobody wants to waste anybody's time. So at that, at that level, when people are coming in, I don't think it's a good idea. And unfortunately, this is, this happens across professions.

I don't think it's a good idea to go out of your way to create tension. And people still do this, you know, I mean, especially I would say, especially in the tech industry, I've just heard, you know, I, you know, people would go in for seven, eight, 12 interviews. And they would just, they would just be grilled over and over and over again by different people, different, you know, and it's exhausting and it's unpleasant.

And I, I don't think that method of hiring is a good one. Because some people, again, some people do very well with that. Other people, not so much. And I think it's often, it's often those kinds of stress interviews, those repetitive stress interviews are often the product of, you know, CEOs or, or, or leaders with big egos.

You know, it's like, it's like, let's put them through their paces. Let's put their nose to the grindstone. On the other hand, I think if you, if you can connect with the person in a more genuine way. Ask them about themselves. Now, you know, I appreciate we live in a time where everyone's agreed over everything.

And, you know, I'm, I'm not suggesting any breaking of boundaries and, you know, you don't want to ask people about their sex life or, you know, what they dream necessarily, obviously, but I think it would be well within your rights to ask them, you know, how do they spend their free time when they get angry?

What do they look like? What kind of friendships do they have? I mean, that might be something that people go, Oh, none of your business, but you know what we spend most of our time at work, I mean, whether it's on screen or whether it's in person, and I think it's, I think it well behooves us to find out on a much more granular level who we're dealing with because we're going to be dealing with them.

So, you know, certainly childhood questions, again, not, not horrible, horribly intrusive questions, but what was your childhood like? And if anybody says it was a perfect childhood, don't hire them. And so you you rightly called me out on the, on the term naive the other day, which I thought about it. And I agree with you about, so if we were to translate that unfortunate word into another word, which does not assume blame on that person, I would say.

You know, and this is going to be hard in the tech industry and in any industry probably, but you probably don't want people working for you who are massively unaware psychologically. Not that that's their fault, but that's not going to go well. You don't want people who are hyper touchy. You don't want people who are completely incapable of looking at how they affect human relationships.

You don't want those people because they're just going to be problems. They're going to turn around and sue you or they're going to call somebody or they're going to write and they need to go into therapy or they need to work in a cubicle and never talk to people. I think there's room for that.

There's room to be kind, there's room to be kind and also discerning. And if you're hiring for positions that are leadership positions, for example, or that have a lot of responsibility, you do not want to hire touchy people. People who are easily aggrieved, you do not want them because it's a nightmare.

And there are many people probably with the same qualifications who can stand that or actually enjoy being in the spotlight.

Tim Butara: Yeah, as you said, just a little bit earlier, ego tends to be the problem in these kinds of situations. And yeah, it's also a problem if you are unable to discern like an overpowered ego in somebody and hire them despite that.

So, so yeah, definitely an important consideration right there.

Nicholas Samstag: Yeah. And I also think, and this, this again, you know, people could say, you know, I didn't sign up for this, but I think I think any activity that brings people together in the workplace, whose agenda is only to, you know, enjoy one another, I think those are good things.

Right. I mean, from the mail room to the C suite, like whatever, whether it's a picnic or whether it's a party or whether it's a, I mean, those things typically don't go well because no one, no one actually leads it. And it starts to sound a little like group therapy, and it may be not a bad thing, but, you know, instead of going out and just getting hammered with your colleagues or.

you know, going to some fancy resort and you know, spending a lot of money. If, if there were, if there were people on board who are, who had some kind of psychological acumen, you could just, you know, you could create outings in which people would, would get a chance who one another is. And that has been shown by Harvard and other places.

That's been shown to be really good for the bottom line, you know, which is why everybody there, it's actually profitable to be psychologically engaged.

Tim Butara: And I guess that this becomes even more important now in the era of hybrid and remote work, right?

Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, I mean, that, you know, that's a great problem slash opportunity as, as you and I talked about a little bit where, yeah, I mean, it's certainly possible to relate on screen.

And I think I said this the other day, and the people who, the people who have trouble relating on screen have trouble relating off screen. I don't think that the determining variable is a technology, I think it's personality. And so people respond. I found this during COVID. I mean, I did not know that I was going to have my practice almost exclusively online and thank God there wasn't online.

Otherwise I'd be driving a cab. And I was I was amazed at how well people did it. And I did on screen. Like it was like, okay, we're on screen. But it wasn't that the screen created some kind of psychological difficulty. The psychological difficulties were there, or not. And the screen was, for some people, just another, another vehicle to communicate.

But to be sure, my opinion, you know, the screen is not the same as in person. Insist, that's too strong. But I certainly make a case for people coming in, when they can because it, you know, it's just better. But yeah, you can, you can relate to people online. Absolutely. But you have to want to, and you have to, you have to be able to transition from the business speak to the, the more, you know, related interpersonal speak.

And that's hard to do.

Tim Butara: So maybe in the context of our specific conversation, so family dynamics are, is there anything specific here? So, you know, is, is something more greatly expressed in person and maybe should be paid less attention to online or vice versa, stuff like that?

Nicholas Samstag: No, I think, you know, I was trained in it in many different ways, but a great part of my training was to be curious.

There's a lot of, a lot of ink has been spilled in philosophy and psychoanalysis about this. I mean, just to be curious, and you know, I've talked about this, you can't be curious if you're frightened and you can't be curious if you feel that you're, you're on unsteady ground. So I think for people to be curious about one another, for people to ask that question is often very helpful.

And then if they have trouble being curious, they can, they can ask themselves what's going on and hopefully deal with it. But people by and large, and I hate generalizations and I'm about to make one, people by and large operate, I'm not the first person to say this, operate from the standpoint of safety.

We tend to do things that we think will augment our safety and not to do things that we think will increase it. It's called security operations in some, in some literature. So, you know, whether, whether or not people feel comfortable speaking or initiating or responding or whatever it is, so much of that is about their security operations.

And the more secure you can help people feel, the better things will go, the more pleasant things will be for sure, but you'll get the better ideas because there's some, you know, there's some shy guy or girl in the, in the, in the mail room who actually has a great idea, but they're not going to open their mouth if they feel that they're going to be slapped.

Tim Butara: So it should be psychological curiosity that we mentioned early on together with psychological safety, another important concept here.

Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think we need to help, you know, it's hard being a human. It's really hard. We're all, you know, it, there's a lot to deal with. It's a big job, and there's no manual, but I think in an ideal world.

The people running the show would have, you know, more than a bit of psychological awareness. And, and so they would treat people, you know, I mean, this sounds all obvious, right? They would treat, treat everyone with respect and, and they would also have very clear boundaries. That's, that's a good thing to talk about.

Boundaries. What does a boundary mean? Boundary means what is okay and what is not okay to do and how am I going to treat people? I mean, boundaries constitute the fabric and the structure of every interpersonal engagement. You know, why am I talking about this? How am I talking about this? You know, have I hijacked someone into this conversation?

Or have I invited them? How do I go about the day? You know, do I, how do I respect people's time? Boundary, boundary, boundary. I spend a lot of my time talking about boundaries. And boundaries are not there to be, you know, they're ad infinitum, they're just there to be. We need them, otherwise we can't function.

So being, being kind doesn't mean being boundaryless.

Tim Butara: Yeah, that's a very good point. Definitely. And Nick, another great conversation. And I just have one final question, I guess, not that directly related, but a little bit, a little bit related to everything. Since we're discussing family dynamics in business, I wanted to ask you if you have any thoughts on this kind of recent trend of companies, especially startups to market themselves as families in a way, what are your thoughts on that?

Nicholas Samstag: Bad idea. Yuck, yuck, yuck. Super bad idea. Super bad idea. Why is it a bad idea? You know, it's, it's, it's that old adage, right? It's like you choose, you don't, you don't choose your family, you choose your friends. And, and everybody's family is not wonderful. In fact, not no family is wonderful, in my opinion. So you don't, you don't want to do that.

You don't want to do that. I think you could come up with a, with a, with a much better. Idea, you know, I mean, the word team sounds sort of trite and hackneyed these days, or maybe, maybe you don't even want to put a word to it, but I think it's, you know, I think what you're looking for, what I'd be looking for, if I was running, running some business is you want a bunch of dynamic.

Relatable, interesting and kind people. That's what you want. You want to go to work in the morning, knowing that you've got people next to you and around you who are smart and engaged. And boundaries, boundaries, and families have no boundaries, typically, families typically have no boundaries or they have boundaries everywhere.

That's just not helpful to anybody.

Tim Butara: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I love how we connected everything and and a great note to finish on a great another great conversation, Nick. Before we wrap it up, if anybody listening right now would like to reach out and connect with you, what's the best way to reach you?

Nicholas Samstag: Oh, that's great.

So, yeah, so my, my website is nicholas, N I C H O L A S, at nicholassaverstein. com. And you can find me there with all my, all my stuff, good or bad. There I am.

Tim Butara: Okay, awesome. We'll also include that in the show notes as well as a link to your podcast. And once it's live to the episode that we did together.

looking forward to, to both, to seeing both live and re listening to them again. Thanks again, Nick. Excited to, to get to speak with you again sometime soon.

Nicholas Samstag: Well, it's such fun, Sam. Always a pleasure. Thank you.

Tim Butara: Cheers. And to our listeners, that's all for this episode. Have a great day, everyone. And

Nicholas Samstag: stay safe.

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